What happened to Zen 3+?

NattyKathy

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I kind of get it. They're putting together a fantastic, last-generation hurrah push. It'll do for everyone that hasn't gotten into this generation, which, is actually probably a pretty big market still.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense for what it is. If it really does provide same or better performance at all times in gaming than a 12900K, and does so at lower power consumption, then 5800X3D will be a no-brainer for high-end gaming builds.
Edit- maybe Extreme Edition was an uncharitable comparison... this is more like Athlon FX-62 vs Conroe perhaps.
 
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NattyKathy

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6000 series are mobile chips. Just like the 4000 series chips.

They did the same thing last generation. Zen 4XXX was essentially mobile and some OEM only APUs.

Edit: jmilcher beat me to it.

Edit2: Maybe they'll make an OEM AM4 part like they did last time around?

yeah I got that... I was reacting to how the rumors had people hyped up that the vCache chips on AM4 would be a more wide-ranging refresh and would be released under 6000-series branding to go with the 6000-series mobile launch, to keep the desktop and mobile generations aligned.
 

kirbyrj

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Yeah, it makes a lot of sense for what it is. If it really does provide same or better performance at all times in gaming than a 12900K, and does so at lower power consumption, then 5800X3D will be a no-brainer for high-end gaming builds.

Especially if you have an AM4 motherboard already.
 

kirbyrj

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Did they mention a price on that 5800X3D? I would think it would probably be around $399 (e.g. the old 5800x price that is a hard sell now with ADL).
 

chameleoneel

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Amd just announced a 5800X3D… unfortunately that appears to be the only CPU that will have 3D cache.

source:

I suspect a couple of things are going on here:

1. they weren't able to keep the heat in check. So they had to downclock. This will unfortunately mitigate some of the gains they could have had in certain games. But, should still be an improvement, averaged across multiple games and apps. Additionally, the heat issues are probably exacerbated as the core counts increase. They may be waiting a couple of months to either refine or just bin great chips, for higher core count variations.

2. AMD's manufacturing capacity is so strained, I'm actually not surprised they are only launching one chip right now. Again, they are probably binning at least some 12 cores. And by the time the 5800X3D is actually available----they could announce a 5900X3D.
 

NattyKathy

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I doubt it'll be priced around $399. That would be nice, but if benchmarks really back up "fastest gaming CPU", it'll be a premium. $499 intro price wouldn't be out of the question, imo. I don't like that but it seems likely to me.
 

WilyKit

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Gamers Nexus seems a little more optimistic that 3D cache will make it to 5900x/5950x than HUB is.
 

jmilcher

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The 5950x was rumored and teased albeit before CES. Remember when people bought the 5800x because it was all they basically had available in stock? Maybe this will be a similar situation. People will clamor for the the vcache version but think there is only a 5800x. Crazier things have happened.
 
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Shadowarez

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Bah well guess the Ghost S1 Rig is getting the 5800x3d and main rig will stay on the 5950x
 

skline00

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I think you will be VERY lucky to snag a 5800x3D for $499. The way this market is going I could see it set at a MSRP of $599. Then the scalpers move in.
 

TheSlySyl

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Damn, was also hoping for a 5950x3d. Guess I'll be looking for a used 5950 when AM5 launches or something instead.
 
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Yea maybe I'll consider 1 5800x3d for my htpc but not gonna replace my 5900 with one regardless of the performance.
 

RanceJustice

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Have to admit frustration with lack of 5950X-3D . Sure its not necessary JUST for gaming, but lots of people who also want top of the line gaming and overclocking will buy a 5950X if they at have some use cases that can use all the cores, and both high all-core and single/few core turbo OCs. Seems frustrating to only limit it especially in light of Intel coming back with the 12-series, which apparently competes again with Zen3 plus it has has newer generation IO elements like PCI-E 5.0, Thunderbolt 4, USB 4 etc. With all this in mind (including the lack of updated AM4 mobos and for the moment at least limited v-cache CPUs. If they do bring out 5950X or even 5900X 3D Vcache, I can only hope they do it quickly because I don't want tosee these show up say... late spring or early summer, right about the time people will be waiting for the fall arrival of the true next generation) , it seems like AMD may be basically less desirable for many users for the entire year up until Zen 4 - which wil need to compete with the next gen Intel as well!
 

Shadowarez

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I just want d to make sure.my rig had the last possible upgrade for the AM4 platform so it was mazxed out in ram, cpu, SSD, GPU,
 
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This pc should suffice until the teething pains of next gen are worked out and ddr5 isn't retarded price wise. My old 5800x was a fast chip but the temps were just atrocious when pushing it hard. The dual ccd is easier to cool and runs almost as quickly.The stacked cache 5900 would have made me wait for an extra gen to upgrade and the vendors aren't trying to short themselves a gen of sales to make me happy and the bmw needs some wallet time☹
 

CAD4466HK

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This answered a few of my questions.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/17152/amd-cpus-in-2022-ces

The processor will launch in the Spring (March/April we think), and exact pricing is yet to be announced.

For those that have been following AMD’s V-Cache news over this past year, I bet you have exactly the same questions I did when AMD first briefed us on this announcement. Here is a summary of the questions I asked, and my interpretations of the responses.

Why only Ryzen 7, not Ryzen 5/Ryzen 9? Because this is a new project for AMD, they want to find out how a processor like this will be welcomed into the market. A lot of users (myself included) expected AMD to go all-in with a big 16-core version, however anything Ryzen 9 requires two chiplets, and adding the extra V-Cache does require an extra cost in silicon and packaging. During a semiconductor shortage, I was told that this is the best way to get it into the hands of many people while also not in the super high-cost bracket. It also means one single unified 96 MB of L3 cache, without having to deal with two chiplets worth which might not be optimized immediately. Future versions of V-Cache on next-generation products may be expanded to other Ryzen members of the family.

The frequencies are lower than the regular 5800X? The cache does add a few watts to the power both in terms of idle and load. Rather than bin a stricter chiplet, the decision was made to reduce the frequency a little, but still allow overclocking. The chip, while listed at 105 W, still has the 142 W package power tracking for motherboards that support it.

Who is this chip for? The focus is on users playing video games over anything else. The extra cache is meant to help with communications with discrete graphics cards, offering additional performance above the regular R7 5800X. Productivity workloads are less likely to be affected, and for those users the regular Ryzen CPUs are expected to be better. The Ryzen 7 5800X3D is designed to be the ‘World’s Fastest Gaming Processor’ (when compared to the 5900X and 12900K).

In terms of those performance metrics, AMD is quoting:


  • From 1.0x to 1.4x at 1080p High vs Ryzen 9 5900X + RTX3080 (15% average)
  • From 0.98x to 1.2x at 1080p High vs Core i9-12900K (DDR5) + RTX3080
 

Shadowarez

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so maybe they can engineer a 5950x 3D or does this really mean they only going with the 5800x 3D.
 

Shadowarez

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ahhh makes sense see if the 3d version kills off the reason for non 3d versions right out he gate.
 

penn919

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Am I the only one who suspects that the 5800x3d will be sold out for months and that there's no chance in hell anyone gets it at less than $599 due to demand? They scrapped an entire series and replaced it with only one chip. There's no way they can keep it in stock. I'm guessing most would be best served sitting this one out.
 

the_real_7

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I would guess because of latency why they would pick the 5800x to do 3d version, I have 3 gaming systems two with 5900x and one for the living room which is the 5800x, gaming wise is great processor and well balanced power and speed, and temps have been amazing in the itx build but that can just be silicon lottery
 

the_real_7

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Am I the only one who suspects that the 5800x3d will be sold out for months and that there's no chance in hell anyone gets it at less than $599 due to demand? They scrapped an entire series and replaced it with only one chip. There's no way they can keep it in stock. I'm guessing most would be best served sitting this one out.
maybe intel processors have been easy to get, maybe it's the ddr5 issue
 

NattyKathy

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Am I the only one who suspects that the 5800x3d will be sold out for months and that there's no chance in hell anyone gets it at less than $599 due to demand? They scrapped an entire series and replaced it with only one chip. There's no way they can keep it in stock. I'm guessing most would be best served sitting this one out.
I think that's likely. Regular Ryzen 5x00 supply has been good for most of 2021 but 5800X3D clearly isn't supposed to be a high-volume replacement for any regular 5x00 part; it's a halo part to keep Ryzen 5000 in the review cycle and challenge the position of Alder Lake in leaderboards.
 

lopoetve

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I don’t see anyone moving off their current 5800/5900/5950 for this. Especially if it’s priced too high. Too close to next gen.

I think that's likely. Regular Ryzen 5x00 supply has been good for most of 2021 but 5800X3D clearly isn't supposed to be a high-volume replacement for any regular 5x00 part; it's a halo part to keep Ryzen 5000 in the review cycle and challenge the position of Alder Lake in leaderboards.
This. It’s a final swing because Zen4 has taken a while to launch. Hell, I didn’t upgrade from Zen2, although I wanted a zen3 Threadripper, but a CPU upgrade doesn’t buy you that much on consumer kit, especially between two very good releases like those.
 
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A part of me wants to get one of these for educational purposes, just to see what happens when you add a buttload of cache to a CPU that already had a buttload of cache.
sort-of-want.jpg
 

lopoetve

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A part of me wants to get one of these for educational purposes, just to see what happens when you add a buttload of cache to a CPU that already had a buttload of cache.
View attachment 430345
I have it on the "oddball" list - if it comes up, cheap, might as well? But with a 3950 and 3960, dont' see a reason to jump (couldn't justify 3950->5950 either).
 

Shadowarez

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i was in the boat to buy a nice shiny 5950x 3D then move he current 5950x to the Ghost Build but now itll be regulated to a 5800x 3D i guess i could buy another 5950x incase mine dies again like the first one for down the road as i dont plan on hopping on Zen 4 asap ill wait for Zen 5 or Zen 4+ if supply ever alleviates.
 

KazeoHin

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Man, I don't care what the price is, give me a 5995XXX3D with 64 cores and 3D stacked Vcache, unlocked with 8 channel memory. Allow people to buy the absolute best of every category, price be damned.
 

Shadowarez

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Man, I don't care what the price is, give me a 5995XXX3D with 64 cores and 3D stacked Vcache, unlocked with 8 channel memory. Allow people to buy the absolute best of every category, price be damned.
hahaha Exactly its the end of the Platform let us build the Absolute Beast pc till supply issues get sorted. id love nothing more then to be able to tossin another 128gb of ram stick with 256gb ddr 4 3600.
 

Starfalcon

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I was planning on doing my final upgrade with my system with a 5950X3D to replace my 3900X, just like I did back in the XP days. I planned to get a 3200 back then, but ended up with a 2500 mobile chip that OCed way better and faster. Kept that system, for a long time with just some video card upgrades until I finally replaced it in the socket 775 days. Now I just have to see what I am going to do with this system.
 

bobzdar

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Seems kind of dumb they didn't do this with the 5900 & 5950 - I'd totally be onboard for a 5950x3d, but going down from 16 to 8 cores for faster single core speed isn't really a move I want to make.
 
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A part of me wants to get one of these for educational purposes, just to see what happens when you add a buttload of cache to a CPU that already had a buttload of cache.
The cache speed and size may significantly help in frame time performance beyond the anticipated 10-15% average fps boost.
Look how well the 5775c does in modern titles compared to the newer 6700k:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1619...ive-review-in-2020-is-edram-still-worth-it/22
If that CPU was 6 or 8 core, it would hang with the best of them today. We could see something similar with this CPU.
DDR4 is still an amazing performer against DDR5, especially for the price. I doubt PCI-e 5.0 will be life changing over PCI-e 4.0 for the next few years as well.
 

Shadowarez

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like others have stated im hoping this 5800x3d is just a market test if it sells they go forward with rest of the line up.
 

d3athf1sh

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I'm wondering if maybe the reason they are only doing a 5800X3D is because, unlike the 5600/5900, the 5800x only uses one ccd and maybe they are using the space for some of the cache?
 
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I'm wondering if maybe the reason they are only doing a 5800X3D is because, unlike the 5600/5900, the 5800x only uses one ccd and maybe they are using the space for some of the cache?
I thought the cache was stacked on top but there could be issues with transferring that data seamlessly between the CCDs.
 

evhvis

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I'm wondering if maybe the reason they are only doing a 5800X3D is because, unlike the 5600/5900, the 5800x only uses one ccd and maybe they are using the space for some of the cache?
Would expect this to be mostly a test-run to mature the v-cache process and to steal some of Intel's glory with regards to who has the fastest gaming CPU.

The 5800x is well into the diminishing returns area with regards to 142w as the performance difference between 130w and 142w is fairly small in my 5800x system, but the temp will differ by a significant margin. Looking at the rated clocks it seems they either ran out of power or are having trouble getting the 5800x3D to run as fast as the 5800x. For the 5900x the ideal power draw seems to be in the 160-170w range so if power draw is the limitation, then 2 sets of v-cache might make the CPU clocks go down too low with 142w of power in all core scenarios. A lot of boards can't go much above the 142w limit due to insufficient powerstages/vrm cooling so increasing the "stock" power draw is most likely not an option at this point.

Other possibilities are that the v-cache mostly scales in games or that it doesn't scale well when the load is distributed between 2 CCDs and v-caches. If it doesn't do much to increase performance in productivity, or even lowers it due to limitations caused by v-cache (clocks, powerdraw etc.), then it doesn't make sense for the 5900x or 5950x to get the upgrade. IMO the 5900x and 5950x don't make sense for games only as their advantages over the 5800x mainly shows themselves in productivity tasks.

My guess is that the v-cache is quite expensive and complex to manufacture compared to the stock CPUs until the process matures, but they may have very few "broken" CCDs. The 5600x and 5900x relies on CCDs with at least on core that is non-functional, otherwise they could make a 5800x/5950x instead. There could also be a high failure rate of the v-cache bonding causing a high price per functional CCD. If almost all working CCDs have 8 functional cores then 5800x3D and 5950x3D makes the most sense. AMD does have limited production capacity though, so they can make 2 5800x3D for each 5950x3D. Going 5800x3D only could double the number of CPUs that they can bring to customers and customers love "in stock".
 
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