Microsoft to Remove Ability to Install Win 11 Pro Without Being Online and Signing in to Microsoft Account

Eulogy

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I don't think people thought Pro would have it. There's no way any business could use it if it didn't have local accounts.
Yes, they did (probably still do - tons of certain folks disregard facts and real information and just want their reality). Read the title of the thread, the OP, or the article linked (or any of the others about this topic). Many folks were claiming the sky is falling for Pro version.
 

DukenukemX

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If the product is free, you are the product.
If the product isn't open source then you are the product. FreeCAD and Fusion 360 can both be free but one is really trying to get you to pay for their services while the other is just free.

Let us use a little commonsense and know that Microsoft, just like Google and Apple, does not care about your privacy or personal data. Whether you choose to use Windows 11 or not, that is a simple fact of life that is what it is.
The main thing here is that Microsoft, Google, and Apple are all using OS's to get you into a closed ecosystem. Or as I like to call them "techno feudalism". Everyone is trying to make an OS that is trying really hard to keep you in their walled garden to collect data and force you to buy apps through their store. That's the whole reason Microsoft wants you to sign in with a Microsoft account. Also probably why they want TPM and secure boot for Windows 11. Apple gets away with it because Apple users are idiots. Google gets away with it because it's free. Microsoft though has not had any luck locking people into their ecosystem and they seem to be really trying now. Remember when Microsoft made Windows 10 for ARM and required you to download all apps from the Microsoft Store? That failed horribly. Remember when Windows 10 would mysteriously delete apps without notifying you? Remember when Windows 7 would update to Windows 10 without your permission?

Linux though doesn't do any of this stuff. It is truly free and truly lacking of any data collection. If it isn't then guess what? There's many other distros that do. Which is why my gaming PC will get Linux installed but on a separate drive. I have installed Linux Mint on many machines and I know the limitations of using Linux. For now I'm dual booting Linux and Windows but on separate drives. That way I can use Linux primarily and then use Windows when an application won't work on Linux. Gotta rip the bandaid off sometime.
 

Eulogy

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It is truly free and truly lacking of any data collection.
Not true. Most distros (especially the popular ones) are absolutely not lacking "any data collection". The first one I point folks to is `popularity-contest`, which is setup on every Ubuntu since... 16.04? And there's more, depending on which distro is in use. I don't have time to bring up examples from each.

Edit: good thing is, Ubuntu at least is removing popcon in 22.04 and up (and 21.10 it isn't there either).
 

GotNoRice

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Remember when Microsoft made Windows 10 for ARM and required you to download all apps from the Microsoft Store? That failed horribly.

Considering that the Microsoft Store was pretty much the only way to get programs that would actually run on an ARM CPU at that point in time, it almost made sense. Would it have been better if they simply allowed users to figure out on their own why none of their programs worked?

Remember when Windows 7 would update to Windows 10 without your permission?

That's some revisionist history right there. Microsoft might have been pushy at one point, but at no point did it ever occur automatically or without your permission. I'll admit that they were less clear than they should have been. Below is an example screenshot I still have from back when this was actually occurring. While it was clearly designed to "encourage" people to upgrade, and for a computer novice it might have even appeared that there was no choice to cancel, the choice was always there.

10choice.jpg
 

chithanh

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Would it have been better if they simply allowed users to figure out on their own why none of their programs worked?
There wasn't even a way to turn that off except for jailbreaking.

That's some revisionist history right there. Microsoft might have been pushy at one point, but at no point did it ever occur automatically or without your permission.
Depends on what you meant by "permission". If you had recommended updates enabled in Windows Update, well Microsoft counted Windows 10 as recommended update to Windows 7.

While it was clearly designed to "encourage" people to upgrade, and for a computer novice it might have even appeared that there was no choice to cancel, the choice was always there.
This is known as "dark pattern" and is far worse than merely encouraging. It is preying on people who are confused or less tech savvy.
 

GotNoRice

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There wasn't even a way to turn that off except for jailbreaking.

My point was that these were never intended to be normal Windows computers. Using a non-x86 CPU created fundimental compatibility issues that the average user would have been extremely confused by, especially at that point in time, if they weren't having their hand held. The real solution was to avoid ARM-based windows devices.

Depends on what you meant by "permission". If you had recommended updates enabled in Windows Update, well Microsoft counted Windows 10 as recommended update to Windows 7.

I always enabled that option yet I never had it install automatically. We're talking like 40+ computers. I guess I just got "lucky" :rolleyes:

This is known as "dark pattern" and is far worse than merely encouraging. It is preying on people who are confused or less tech savvy.

If someone doesn't understand the functionality of a Red X in the top right of a window, they are going to encounter far greater issues than an unintended OS upgrade.
 

chithanh

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My point was that these were never intended to be normal Windows computers. Using a non-x86 CPU created fundimental compatibility issues that the average user would have been extremely confused by, especially at that point in time, if they weren't having their hand held. The real solution was to avoid ARM-based windows devices.
The compatibility issue wasn't that fundamental. Microsoft already had that with Windows NT on MIPS, PowerPC (on Alpha there was DEC FX!32). Also the jailbroken Windows RT devices showed that you could run .NET applications fine without any modifications.
So while Microsoft might have had good reasons to limit non-store applications by default on Windows RT, there was never any justification for having to jailbreak it in order to run non-store applications.

Also there was this leak of Windows 10 on 32-bit ARM (build 15035) which you could install on some Windows RT devices and didn't have any of the restrictions.

I always enabled that option yet I never had it install automatically. We're talking like 40+ computers. I guess I just got "lucky" :rolleyes:
Microsoft doesn't inflict every dark pattern on all users at once, and especially on "Home" users more than "Pro" users. They make extensive use of A/B testing. This is not limited to automated OS upgrades, but also other anti-functions like ads in start menu, explorer, Windows settings, sidebar, lockscreen, etc. You would always find users who are not shown those.

If someone doesn't understand the functionality of a Red X in the top right of a window, they are going to encounter far greater issues than an unintended OS upgrade.
Microsoft is known to disable the red X too when too many users click on that. KB4567409 (Microsoft Edge Startup Experience) is such an example, the X was only enabled on the second screen of the assistant, and if you killed it via task manager on the first screen then it would import data from other browsers without user consent.
 

DukenukemX

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Not true. Most distros (especially the popular ones) are absolutely not lacking "any data collection". The first one I point folks to is `popularity-contest`, which is setup on every Ubuntu since... 16.04? And there's more, depending on which distro is in use. I don't have time to bring up examples from each.
No major distro sends personal data. We know this because no major distro is closed source. If any distro was collecting personal data then we'd know. That being said MX Linux is currently the most popular distro. Ubuntu is #6.
https://distrowatch.com/
 

DukenukemX

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Considering that the Microsoft Store was pretty much the only way to get programs that would actually run on an ARM CPU at that point in time, it almost made sense. Would it have been better if they simply allowed users to figure out on their own why none of their programs worked?
I hate to point at Apple for doing something right but their move to ARM was done right. There's no limitations on where you get your apps. They have x86 backwards compatibility through emulation, which is something Microsoft didn't even attempt to do.

The problem with ARM is that nearly every company is trying to use this CPU architecture to push users into a ecosystem. A very locked ecosystem.
That's some revisionist history right there. Microsoft might have been pushy at one point, but at no point did it ever occur automatically or without your permission. I'll admit that they were less clear than they should have been. Below is an example screenshot I still have from back when this was actually occurring. While it was clearly designed to "encourage" people to upgrade, and for a computer novice it might have even appeared that there was no choice to cancel, the choice was always there.
Yea, no, it was a common issue. You can Google this and find many complaints over it. Even your screenshot is just Microsoft intentionally failing at conveyance, which is one of the many C's of UI design that Microsoft often fails at. You don't just put two giant buttons in the middle of the screen that both essentially do the same thing and not expect users to not mistakenly click either one. The little tiny red X at the top right which is not only bad conveyance but also bad continuity, isn't clear if it's a NO or just closing the program. This is the sorta tactic you find free applications you download that try to trick you to install some spyware or addon for the web browser, not Microsoft Windows.
https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/4g5ft4/windows_10_update_without_permission/

My point was that these were never intended to be normal Windows computers. Using a non-x86 CPU created fundimental compatibility issues that the average user would have been extremely confused by, especially at that point in time, if they weren't having their hand held. The real solution was to avoid ARM-based windows devices.
Who said it wasn't suppose to be a normal Windows computer? Just cause it was ARM? Linux has had compatibility with x86 on ARM and it's called Box86 and Box64. This isn't new technology either.
 

Wade88

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Box86 and 64 work pretty well on the Rpi 4 8GB with a 64 bit OS to run steamcmd and light duty game servers like Valheim dedicated server.
 

GotNoRice

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Yea, no, it was a common issue. You can Google this and find many complaints over it. Even your screenshot is just Microsoft intentionally failing at conveyance, which is one of the many C's of UI design that Microsoft often fails at. You don't just put two giant buttons in the middle of the screen that both essentially do the same thing and not expect users to not mistakenly click either one. The little tiny red X at the top right which is not only bad conveyance but also bad continuity, isn't clear if it's a NO or just closing the program. This is the sorta tactic you find free applications you download that try to trick you to install some spyware or addon for the web browser, not Microsoft Windows.
https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/4g5ft4/windows_10_update_without_permission/

I agree that it was somewhat misleading, but that still doesn't mean anyone was forced, or that it wasn't obvious enough if you took more than 2 seconds to actually look at what you were clicking on. Even in that reddit link you provided (random comments on reddit are proof now?) there are tons of people commenting that the OP must have clicked something accidentally, etc.

And for anyone who did get "misled" into installing Windows 10... Well considering that Windows 7 has been out of support for over 2 years now, if they are still using that computer today, it would be hard to argue that Microsoft didn't do them a huge favor. Kind of refreshing actually compared to Apple computers which tend to go from the store shelf to the garbage can in what, 5-6 years?

Who said it wasn't suppose to be a normal Windows computer? Just cause it was ARM?

Because we were talking about devices from years ago running Windows 10. Microsoft's first attempts at ARM were for tablets and hybrid laptops, etc, not desktops or even full-sized laptops, certainly not the equivalent of Apple switching to the M1. These devices were not something the average person was going to try to run Quicken on, etc. Microsoft's approach to ARM has gotten much better with Windows 11.
 
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Red Falcon

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That's some revisionist history right there. Microsoft might have been pushy at one point, but at no point did it ever occur automatically or without your permission. I'll admit that they were less clear than they should have been. Below is an example screenshot I still have from back when this was actually occurring. While it was clearly designed to "encourage" people to upgrade, and for a computer novice it might have even appeared that there was no choice to cancel, the choice was always there.

View attachment 451092
Oh yeah, that tiny red 'X', what a choice - guess this is why it is important to read the fine print before signing a contract.
I do remember on Home systems the red 'X' was not there, and on Pro systems the 'X' was present - only Enterprise systems were exempt.

Why are you going to such great lengths to defend Microsoft and justify their Corporatist actions?
Microsoft does not give a shit about you, nor your white knighting for them, and you are supporting a megacorp that only wants your metadata to make a profit off of you.

This isn't revisionist history.
I know we have gone over this in threads before where you were proven wrong time and time again with screenshots, websites, articles, etc. that paint a very different picture from what you continuously advertise, and I personally saw the 180° opposite with hundreds of systems running Windows 7 circa 2019 and 2020.

What is your end-goal with all of this?
Control? Ego? Stocks?


And for anyone who did get "misled" into installing Windows 10... Well considering that Windows 7 has been out of support for over 2 years now, if they are still using that computer today, it would be hard to argue that Microsoft didn't do them a huge favor.
At this point in 2022, it is time to either air gap or move away from Windows 7 if possible.
I would hardly call getting digitally fucked in the ass by Microsoft a "huge favor", though.

Kind of refreshing actually compared to Apple computers which tend to go from the store shelf to the garbage can in what, 5-6 years?
Oh, you mean exactly what Microsoft will be soon forcing on customers wishing to move to Windows 11 on older hardware not deemed supported by Microsoft, or on supported hardware but without a TPM 2.0 chip?
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. :whistle:

Because we were talking about devices from years ago running Windows 10. Microsoft's first attempts at ARM were for tablets and hybrid laptops, etc, not desktops or even full-sized laptops, certainly not the equivalent of Apple switching to the M1. These devices were not something the average person was going to try to run Quicken on, etc. Microsoft's approach to ARM has gotten much better with Windows 11.
Microsoft is still emulating on ARM, while Apple is translating on ARM.
Microsoft needs to get with the times - oh right, they don't care because Windows is barely 10% of their overall revenue at this point, and Windows is at best a 3rd class product.
 
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GotNoRice

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Why are you going to such great lengths to defend Microsoft and justify their Corporatist actions?
Microsoft does not give a shit about you, nor your white knighting for them, and you are supporting a megacorp that only wants your metadata to make a profit off of you.

*yawn*
Is that really any worse than believing you are some kind of superhero savior of freedom by pushing open-source software that in most cases is NOT the best solution for people?

I like Microsoft products because they continuously work well for me and my customers.

What is your end-goal with all of this?
Control? Ego? Stocks?

What is your goal when you intentionally shit on every Microsoft thread?

Oh, you mean exactly what Microsoft will be soon forcing on customers wishing to move to Windows 11 on older hardware not deemed supported by Microsoft, or on supported hardware but without a TPM 2.0 chip?
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. :whistle:

I have Windows 11 running and working great on computers that are over 15 years old. I have helped quite a few people bypass the requirements. It is rather funny though how quick you flip-flop from complaining about free Windows 10 upgrades to complaining when people can't get Windows 11.
 

ManofGod

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My point was that these were never intended to be normal Windows computers. Using a non-x86 CPU created fundimental compatibility issues that the average user would have been extremely confused by, especially at that point in time, if they weren't having their hand held. The real solution was to avoid ARM-based windows devices.



I always enabled that option yet I never had it install automatically. We're talking like 40+ computers. I guess I just got "lucky" :rolleyes:



If someone doesn't understand the functionality of a Red X in the top right of a window, they are going to encounter far greater issues than an unintended OS upgrade.

I have been an IT professional from at least the Windows 2000 release days and on. One thing that is easy to remember is that clicking the red X simply started the upgrade automatically. Although I personally did not care on my own machines, since I was using Win10 from the beta and on, customers and other users were quite upset.
 

Red Falcon

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*yawn*
Is that really any worse than believing you are some kind of superhero savior of freedom by pushing open-source software that in most cases is NOT the best solution for people?
I'm just a guy trying to open peoples' eyes to see the forest through the trees. :borg:
Yes, it is much worse to be a lackey of a megacorp who subjugates people to their whims, rather than trying to be someone who yearns and fights for true freedom and open-source solutions; the fact that you had to ask that question proves that you are part of the problem.

I like Microsoft products because they continuously work well for me and my customers.
I'm glad you enjoy them, and I hope that they continue to work well for you and your customers.
Just make sure to ask yourself a few things: At what cost? Is this worth it? Do I accept that I am ok when I am next on the chopping block?

What is your goal when you intentionally shit on every Microsoft thread?
I would think pointing out and trying to stop Corporatism would be a good thing to you, but I suppose it doesn't work well on those who are bought and paid for.
I mean, you are bought and paid for, and not just letting yourself get fucked by Microsoft for free, right?

Just FYI, the difference between a prostitute and a whore is that a prostitute at least gets paid when they get fucked...

I have Windows 11 running and working great on computers that are over 15 years old. I have helped quite a few people bypass the requirements. It is rather funny though how quick you flip-flop from complaining about free Windows 10 upgrades to complaining when people can't get Windows 11.
I'm not complaining about individuals not being able to upgrade to Windows 11, though I am pointing out the hypocrisy of Microsoft's agenda to do the opposite by creating literal tons of e-waste by systems not meeting their artificial requirements.
I commend you for your bypass on such systems, though that may not be the case for much longer if Microsoft has anything to say about it.
 
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Ebernanut

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Yes, they did (probably still do - tons of certain folks disregard facts and real information and just want their reality). Read the title of the thread, the OP, or the article linked (or any of the others about this topic). Many folks were claiming the sky is falling for Pro version.
The article was about changes made to the latest(at the time)preview version of pro which is why people talking about it in regards to pro. Assuming the screenshots above are legit it looks like they backtracked due to the negative attention, as far as I'm concerned this just means that the article and discussion achieved something not that it should have been ignored like you're suggesting.

That's some revisionist history right there. Microsoft might have been pushy at one point, but at no point did it ever occur automatically or without your permission. I'll admit that they were less clear than they should have been. Below is an example screenshot I still have from back when this was actually occurring. While it was clearly designed to "encourage" people to upgrade, and for a computer novice it might have even appeared that there was no choice to cancel, the choice was always there.
The only revisionist history here is you claiming that MS didn't try everything to get people to upgrade including some people never giving permission and yet coming back to their computer and finding 10 installed/installing. Even trying to make people think that now or later were their only options is pretty shitty too though so I'm not sure how it still wouldn't qualify as further proof that ms engages in shitty anti-consumer actions.
 

DukenukemX

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I agree that it was somewhat misleading, but that still doesn't mean anyone was forced, or that it wasn't obvious enough if you took more than 2 seconds to actually look at what you were clicking on. Even in that reddit link you provided (random comments on reddit are proof now?) there are tons of people commenting that the OP must have clicked something accidentally, etc.
Modern UI design seems to be all about tricking users. Microsoft is doing the same thing now but tricking users into making a Microsoft account. Which I do believe that Microsoft will just patch it so user Domain sign in won't avoid it.
And for anyone who did get "misled" into installing Windows 10... Well considering that Windows 7 has been out of support for over 2 years now, if they are still using that computer today, it would be hard to argue that Microsoft didn't do them a huge favor.
People who use older versions of Windows do so for many good reasons. I can't think of a single Windows upgrade that didn't break something. I either had to live with it or find a crazy method to fix it. I can see why some users would not like to upgrade.
Kind of refreshing actually compared to Apple computers which tend to go from the store shelf to the garbage can in what, 5-6 years?
Not getting updates doesn't mean it's trash. Just means the company is trash. Many Mac users continue to use their computers well after Apple has stopped supporting them. I have put Linux on older Macs but it's obviously overkill.

Because we were talking about devices from years ago running Windows 10. Microsoft's first attempts at ARM were for tablets and hybrid laptops, etc, not desktops or even full-sized laptops, certainly not the equivalent of Apple switching to the M1.
Why is this different? I'm being serious here, why do we accept that tablets and hybrid laptops are somehow different? Because they have a touch screen and the storage space of a really large SD Card? I never liked this mentality shift that has been imposed on people to see these devices as something different from a personal computer. Because if people did look at them as no different from a PC then they'd be mad.
These devices were not something the average person was going to try to run Quicken on, etc. Microsoft's approach to ARM has gotten much better with Windows 11.
If you said Crysis I'd be with ya but Quicken isn't demanding. Also what has Microsoft done different with Windows 11 for ARM? Forcing users to use a UI that's more for touch screen? Microsoft tried that back in Windows 8 and that has gone so badly that we never speak of Windows 8. Pretty sure Windows 11 will go badly for the same reasons, but now with TPM & Secure Boots requirements plus shit like signing in with Microsoft account they can't even force you to upgrade. So if I don't want Windows 11 (and I don't) I'll just keep TPM off.

Why are you going to such great lengths to defend Microsoft and justify their Corporatist actions?
Microsoft does not give a shit about you, nor your white knighting for them, and you are supporting a megacorp that only wants your metadata to make a profit off of you.
You do know people get paid to troll forums in favor of a corporation? It's a lot more common than you think. Car forums are riddled with them.
 

Red Falcon

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You do know people get paid to troll forums in favor of a corporation? It's a lot more common than you think. Car forums are riddled with them.
This is true, and it doesn't mean we have to sit there and read their Corporatist propaganda, lies, and actual revisionist history.
I have been working with Windows operating systems for over 30 years now, and in that time I have seen Microsoft change in ways I would not have thought anyone would be ok with, yet here we are.

I remember how Windows 10 was forced upon users, and now with Windows 11 forcing/coercing users into performing certain functions and tasks, it has lost what once made Microsoft a great company into a controlling and manipulative megacorp.
Microsoft is the most powerful megacorp on the planet as of this post, and one would think they have enough money to now start focusing less on profit and more on actually helping people.

But it isn't about money, nor the benefit of others.
It is about power, and control, period.

I mean, what can just one or two forum posters possibly have that could threaten such a powerful megacorp like Microsoft?
I think this about sums it up:

 

Armenius

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Considering that the Microsoft Store was pretty much the only way to get programs that would actually run on an ARM CPU at that point in time, it almost made sense. Would it have been better if they simply allowed users to figure out on their own why none of their programs worked?



That's some revisionist history right there. Microsoft might have been pushy at one point, but at no point did it ever occur automatically or without your permission. I'll admit that they were less clear than they should have been. Below is an example screenshot I still have from back when this was actually occurring. While it was clearly designed to "encourage" people to upgrade, and for a computer novice it might have even appeared that there was no choice to cancel, the choice was always there.

View attachment 451092
It wasn't so simple. Initially, Microsoft overrode the function of the 'X' button such that clicking it was the same as clicking the "Upgrade now" button. They did revert it to expected behavior a couple months later, but soon after replaced it with a full-screen nag that had no 'X' button to close.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...indows-10-upgrade-doesnt-stop-upgrade-process
 

DukenukemX

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I mean, what can just one or two forum posters possibly have that could threaten such a powerful megacorp like Microsoft?
The idea is to keep the consensus positive towards said corporation. Nobody here should ever defend a corporation. They have more money then you could ever count so they don't need support. So many times I talk down about Apple and so many people chime in to defend Apple. Sometimes even posting before anyone in the thread about how the Microsoft/Apple haters are going to start posting. Microsoft deserves all the hate and then some. We're quickly losing control over the products we own. What good reason is there to sign into a Microsoft account? I can think of many good reasons not to. If there were so many benefits to signing in then I should want to, not be forced to. There is none.

It wasn't so simple. Initially, Microsoft overrode the function of the 'X' button such that clicking it was the same as clicking the "Upgrade now" button. They did revert it to expected behavior a couple months later, but soon after replaced it with a full-screen nag that had no 'X' button to close.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...indows-10-upgrade-doesnt-stop-upgrade-process
So not only did Microsoft break conveyance and continuity but now control and context. There's no conveyance because nobody is giving you the option to just say NO to the upgrade. Continuity is broke because the X normally just closes the app, but can now work as the NO button. Control is lost since the X is now gone. Context is out the window since X is not telling you much of anything. Should just be a button that says no thank you.

As far as I'm concerned Windows 11 is just another Windows 8 but in 2022. It'll end up like Windows 8 as well. Forgotten and only mentioned when people are talking about the worst Microsoft OS's of all time. Right next to Millennium Edition, Vista, and Windows 8.
 

ManofGod

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The idea is to keep the consensus positive towards said corporation. Nobody here should ever defend a corporation. They have more money then you could ever count so they don't need support. So many times I talk down about Apple and so many people chime in to defend Apple. Sometimes even posting before anyone in the thread about how the Microsoft/Apple haters are going to start posting. Microsoft deserves all the hate and then some. We're quickly losing control over the products we own. What good reason is there to sign into a Microsoft account? I can think of many good reasons not to. If there were so many benefits to signing in then I should want to, not be forced to. There is none.


So not only did Microsoft break conveyance and continuity but now control and context. There's no conveyance because nobody is giving you the option to just say NO to the upgrade. Continuity is broke because the X normally just closes the app, but can now work as the NO button. Control is lost since the X is now gone. Context is out the window since X is not telling you much of anything. Should just be a button that says no thank you.

As far as I'm concerned Windows 11 is just another Windows 8 but in 2022. It'll end up like Windows 8 as well. Forgotten and only mentioned when people are talking about the worst Microsoft OS's of all time. Right next to Millennium Edition, Vista, and Windows 8.

Yeah, the thing is, I liked Windows 8 / 8.1 but, I also never lock myself into one way only of doing things. I also found Vista 64 Bit to be the best, to me but, it took a while to learn the new security paradigm.
 

AmongTheChosenX

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It is going to require a Microsoft account. Local accounts are going away.

Both the primary user, and all secondary users will have to sign in with a Microsoft account, or no dice.

The source article is pretty clear about that:

https://www.windowscentral.com/wind...e-internet-connection-when-setting-first-time

They will try to get you to use a Microsoft Account if you select "for personal use" when you are configuring the OS... Basically, they are trying to re-create the Windows XP Era of computing where you used MS Office + SkyDrive + Internet Explorer as your sole computing software and nothing else.

However, rest assured that they will never "remove" local accounts, as it would be a complete pain in the ass for MS to make multiple images where one doesn't allow you to handle local accounts and one does -- that would be completely impractical, and sysadmins would have a hard time configuring the OOBE settings for deployment mechanisms like MDT
 

AmongTheChosenX

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As far as I'm concerned Windows 11 is just another Windows 8 but in 2022. It'll end up like Windows 8 as well. Forgotten and only mentioned when people are talking about the worst Microsoft OS's of all time. Right next to Millennium Edition, Vista, and Windows 8.

let's pump the brakes for a minute -- Windows 11 is nowhere near the levels of "bad" that we saw with those other OS's... Millennium and Vista literally had unusable, unstable core platforms that never functioned properly in the first place. 11 has no such issues, Microsoft is taking a more security-centric approach, personal accounts included (for things like "find my PC" or "text on your phone via the PC"). They are trying to provide an all-encompassing solution similar to what apple does for their ecosystem, i applaud them for doing so because Windows 10 is in fact pretty disjointed from everything except for Enterprise configurations.
 

Ebernanut

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let's pump the brakes for a minute -- Windows 11 is nowhere near the levels of "bad" that we saw with those other OS's... Millennium and Vista literally had unusable, unstable core platforms that never functioned properly in the first place. 11 has no such issues, Microsoft is taking a more security-centric approach, personal accounts included (for things like "find my PC" or "text on your phone via the PC"). They are trying to provide an all-encompassing solution similar to what apple does for their ecosystem, i applaud them for doing so because Windows 10 is in fact pretty disjointed from everything except for Enterprise configurations.
ME and Vista were actually both pretty solid on hardware that had proper drivers for the OS, it was the extended lack of solid drivers that made them a buggy mess for many. Windows 11 is also just 10 at it's core with a new interface and TPM garbage bolted on so it should have less teething issues however I think when MS moved to an "agile" release schedule with 10 it caused core functionality and stability to suffer(like all software with an aggressive rolling release schedule tends to since features are added half baked and then the dev team is on to the next new thing before the old one can be properly implemented).
 

AmongTheChosenX

Supreme [H]ardness
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ME and Vista were actually both pretty solid on hardware that had proper drivers for the OS, it was the extended lack of solid drivers that made them a buggy mess for many. Windows 11 is also just 10 at it's core with a new interface and TPM garbage bolted on so it should have less teething issues however I think when MS moved to an "agile" release schedule with 10 it caused core functionality and stability to suffer(like all software with an aggressive rolling release schedule tends to since features are added half baked and then the dev team is on to the next new thing before the old one can be properly implemented).

Vista had plenty of driver support. The issue was that the underlying core was not optimized at all and the level of hardware required to run it was hardly available, let alone in use by the average consumer. They fixed some of it with SP2, but let's be real -- it was one of the worst OS's after Windows 9x.

As far as Windows Millennium, that DID have unstable core configurations since it was a hybrid of Windows 2000 and Windows 98 SE... Driver support might have been a problem, but the fact of the matter is that the OS should never have even been put out in the first place because it was quite literally hodge-podged together
 

Ebernanut

[H]ard|Gawd
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Vista had plenty of driver support. The issue was that the underlying core was not optimized at all and the level of hardware required to run it was hardly available, let alone in use by the average consumer. They fixed some of it with SP2, but let's be real -- it was one of the worst OS's after Windows 9x.

As far as Windows Millennium, that DID have unstable core configurations since it was a hybrid of Windows 2000 and Windows 98 SE... Driver support might have been a problem, but the fact of the matter is that the OS should never have even been put out in the first place because it was quite literally hodge-podged together
I used both of those OS's on hardware that had good drivers for the OS and they were rock solid and great. That was never the norm for ME since they moved on to XP pretty quickly which was NT based but if you selected hardware that was released while ME was current and had good drivers it was more stable than early XP. Vista did eventually get it's driver issue sorted because 7 was basically Vista with a new interface and less aggressive prefetch but most people just went straight to 7.
 

Lakados

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ME and Vista were actually both pretty solid on hardware that had proper drivers for the OS, it was the extended lack of solid drivers that made them a buggy mess for many. Windows 11 is also just 10 at it's core with a new interface and TPM garbage bolted on so it should have less teething issues however I think when MS moved to an "agile" release schedule with 10 it caused core functionality and stability to suffer(like all software with an aggressive rolling release schedule tends to since features are added half baked and then the dev team is on to the next new thing before the old one can be properly implemented).
Vista's biggest problem was when Microsoft disabled kernel access for drivers in the last revision before launch forcing developers to use the APIs, Microsoft had been telling them all they were going to do it but HP, Creative, and a number of other big names at the time thought they were bluffing, and when Microsoft did it they were completely unprepared.
The TPM move I wouldn't call bolted on garbage exactly, Microsoft is limited in what they can do with it currently because of the ruling against them when Norton sued them for making Defender too good so they are somewhat hampered on what they are legally allowed to do security-wise but TPM2 modules are sort of required where I am, running full encryption without them is painful and policy here dictates that all user profiles be encrypted in the event a device is lost.

Microsoft is in a tough spot here because when a user gets hacked or crypto locked Microsoft is somehow the one who gets the blame here not the user, so Microsoft is being held as the one required to do something about it, so here we are.
 

Ebernanut

[H]ard|Gawd
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Vista's biggest problem was when Microsoft disabled kernel access for drivers in the last revision before launch forcing developers to use the APIs, Microsoft had been telling them all they were going to do it but HP, Creative, and a number of other big names at the time thought they were bluffing, and when Microsoft did it they were completely unprepared.
The TPM move I wouldn't call bolted on garbage exactly, Microsoft is limited in what they can do with it currently because of the ruling against them when Norton sued them for making Defender too good so they are somewhat hampered on what they are legally allowed to do security-wise but TPM2 modules are sort of required where I am, running full encryption without them is painful and policy here dictates that all user profiles be encrypted in the event a device is lost.

Microsoft is in a tough spot here because when a user gets hacked or crypto locked Microsoft is somehow the one who gets the blame here not the user, so Microsoft is being held as the one required to do something about it, so here we are.
It's more Microsoft's implementation of TPM that bothers me, I have no need for it(currently) and shouldn't have them trying to force it on me.
 

Lakados

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It's more Microsoft's implementation of TPM that bothers me, I have no need for it(currently) and shouldn't have them trying to force it on me.
But that's being forced on Microsoft in the same way, if a number of regulators get their way then local encryption and shadow copies are going to be a required feature of your Windows and possibly Apple devices as well because they are being tasked with "solving" crypto attacks. One of the best methods for this is for things to already be encrypted and have a changelog of key files. But yeah their implementation is half-assed like shit or get or get off the pot, don't make it a requirement but still allow it to be disabled. But I understand why they did, AMD has a flaw in their PSP fTPM implementations, I don't understand how the flaw works only that it's not really correctable from Microsoft's side, and AMD either can't or is unwilling to on a platform they consider EoL. So it basically leaves AMD systems out in the cold for said windows 11 upgrade.

They should have listed it as a requirement for Enterprise, LTSB, or Workstation licenses but left it as optional for Home or Pro, it can always be activated there if the user does have the module and chooses to enable it, and the requirement for it can then be displayed during that setup configuration. But saying you need it for the OS then not even using it by default is just... Lazy? I can't find the right word right now for it but it's not right regardless of how you want to frame it.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
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let's pump the brakes for a minute -- Windows 11 is nowhere near the levels of "bad" that we saw with those other OS's... Millennium and Vista literally had unusable, unstable core platforms that never functioned properly in the first place.
Millennium is basically Windows 98 with major network changes, extra apps, and DOS was hidden. The problem and a common theme was that nobody was ready for all these changes. No drivers and computers weren't fast enough to hide the reboot into DOS feature. Though a lot of the applications did make its way to XP. Vista was bad because drivers and the removal of hardware audio acceleration. Also DirectX10 sucked. Windows 7 was Vista with working drivers and the ability to run Windows XP in a virtual machine. Windows 8 took away the start menu, brought it back as the start screen, and would only let you run one application at a time. It was common to call Windows 8 Window 8. Windows 10 was Windows 8 but with a more Windows 7 UI.

I'm sure these OS's worked fine when they worked, but I didn't have fond memories of finding drivers for my 56K modem using Millennium, or trying to get better graphics performance with Vista. I just didn't use Windows 8 because I ain't got no time for using a tablet UI on the desktop.
11 has no such issues, Microsoft is taking a more security-centric approach, personal accounts included (for things like "find my PC" or "text on your phone via the PC").
1. TPM 2.0 and secure boot do not make a more secure OS. Linux doesn't need it and I'm sure Linux is more secure. Also you're forcing older computers like early Ryzen CPU's to not be able to use Windows 11.
2. To get a UI like Windows 7 I have to install 3rd party applications. You can't just flip some switches and get it that way. Also I hate the Windows 11 UI.
3. Drag and drop not working on taskbar. To get it back you need to install 3rd party software. Open source luckily but still.
4. You need to edit the registry to get back full context menus in Windows 11,

They are trying to provide an all-encompassing solution similar to what apple does for their ecosystem, i applaud them for doing so because Windows 10 is in fact pretty disjointed from everything except for Enterprise configurations.
They could just make good products. Again, why force me to use a Microsoft account? You know Minecraft is doing this? The last time I even logged into my Microsoft account was for Windows Live. Windows Live has long been dead.
 

Lakados

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1. TPM 2.0 and secure boot do not make a more secure OS. Linux doesn't need it and I'm sure Linux is more secure. Also you're forcing older computers like early Ryzen CPU's to not be able to use Windows 11.
I mean it is and it isn't, none of the big leaks lately have been coming from windows servers, a system is only as secure as its weakest user, and corporate environments more often than not have to sacrifice security to meet the skills and abilities of the people that work for them. TPM is a tool, and if more Linux servers had them active and were using them to encrypt their files most of the data breaches we have seen over the last year wouldn't have even been a thing because the data would have been useless off the corporate network.
They could just make good products. Again, why force me to use a Microsoft account? You know Minecraft is doing this? The last time I even logged into my Microsoft account was for Windows Live. Windows Live has long been dead.
And as a tech-savvy admin there are a lot of ways to get to the local account creation window, yes they are hiding it, but if you know what you are looking for then it's pretty easy to find. These changes are for the really not technically capable people out there, Microsoft is being held to task for reducing the effectiveness of crypto attacks, and generally improving user securities. A Microsoft account is generally going to be better secured than your average user, I don't know a single home user using a local account who has a password on their machine, you boot it up and boom into windows you go that's no longer an acceptable scenario, you, me, everybody here in this forum would look at that and cringe so hard our teeth would hurt but millions of users out there don't bat an eye at that scenario and Microsoft is being held accountable for that behavior, should they, no, but tell that to Congress and the EU, Microsoft tried and got smacked.

But I have to 100% agree on the UI changes, but I kind of feel bad for Microsoft here, the Windows 7 UI is dated and looks really bad on a large screen or a 4K screen. The windows 8 UI was ungodly, I mean they sort of made it stuck less with 8.1 but I mean that's still a long way away from good. Windows 10 was a step in the right direction but it's like they got halfway through the redesign then said "you know what we're done, close enough!" Windows 11 is marginally better than 10 so far but still requires me to go back to many of the screens that are still from 7 so it's still incomplete, so yeah that's just... something. I feel that most of the UI changes are meant to accommodate users whose only knowledge of computing devices has come from iOS and Android devices so they are trying to make it more friendly for them while just pissing the rest of us off.
 

kac77

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I used both of those OS's on hardware that had good drivers for the OS and they were rock solid and great. That was never the norm for ME since they moved on to XP pretty quickly which was NT based but if you selected hardware that was released while ME was current and had good drivers it was more stable than early XP. Vista did eventually get it's driver issue sorted because 7 was basically Vista with a new interface and less aggressive prefetch but most people just went straight to 7.
Oh God no. Vista SP2 was OK/workable. But pre SP2 it was horrible and it wasn't just the drivers either. I supported that damn mess and batch installing software, the login issues, it would fall off the domain regularly which we needed to create their own special AD group to handle, and specifically printer drivers over the network was a PITA. These problems didn't exist for 2000 or Vista SP2 or Windows 7. Vista in it's original form was hot garbage. It was so bad that there was a hold where I worked on Vista purchases in favor of Windows 7 because it was that bad. Before that there was the Windows 2000 downgrade disks. Nope Vista at release was terrible. There's nothing you can say to make me forget the purchasing headaches and everything else. Nope.
 
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Ebernanut

[H]ard|Gawd
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Oh God no. Vista SP2 was OK/workable. But pre SP2 it was horrible and it wasn't just the drivers either. I supported that damn mess and batch installing software, the login issues, it would fall off the domain regularly which we needed to create their own special AD group to handle, and specifically printer drivers over the network was a PITA. These problems didn't exist for 2000 or Vista SP2 or Windows 7. Vista in it's original form was hot garbage. It was so bad that there was a hold where I worked on Vista purchases in favor of Windows 7 because it was that bad. Before that there was the Windows 2000 downgrade disks. Nope Vista at release was terrible. There's nothing you can say to make me forget the purchasing headaches and everything else. Nope.
I had my own headaches with Vista and I can't really comment on the networking issues but on hardware with good drivers I found it to be pretty solid. I mainly used it on a pc that had been built from the ground up with vista drivers in mind and it was great, unlike XP the 64 bit version was a real 64 bit os too which was why I used it some. I should add my main PC went straight from XP to 7 since by the time it worked well on that PC 7 was right around the corner and slightly better.

I have to say I'm slightly amused that someone took issue with my positive comments about Vista before ME. I do have enough bad experiences on both to understand the hate they get(especially ME) but I also know on the right hardware they were surprisingly good.
 

Red Falcon

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Oh God no. Vista SP2 was OK/workable. But pre SP2 it was horrible and it wasn't just the drivers either. I supported that damn mess and batch installing software, the login issues, it would fall off the domain regularly which we needed to create their own special AD group to handle, and specifically printer drivers over the network was a PITA. These problems didn't exist for 2000 or Vista SP2 or Windows 7. Vista in it's original form was hot garbage. It was so bad that there was a hold where I worked on Vista purchases in favor of Windows 7 because it was that bad. Before that there was the Windows 2000 downgrade disks. Nope Vista at release was terrible. There's nothing you can say to make me forget the purchasing headaches and everything else. Nope.
This is the exact experience I had with it both personally, and in enterprise, circa 2007-2009.
Windows 10 and 11 are very good operating system from a security and functionality standpoint - it is just the 1984 back-ending hidden/encrypted telemetry, forced feature-changing/removing, constant license cost fluctuation, and vendor lock-in/coercion that makes them malicious operating systems.
 
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cpufrost

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433
And as a tech-savvy admin there are a lot of ways to get to the local account creation window, yes they are hiding it, but if you know what you are looking for then it's pretty easy to find. These changes are for the really not technically capable people out there, Microsoft is being held to task for reducing the effectiveness of crypto attacks, and generally improving user securities. A Microsoft account is generally going to be better secured than your average user, I don't know a single home user using a local account who has a password on their machine, you boot it up and boom into windows you go that's no longer an acceptable scenario, you, me, everybody here in this forum would look at that and cringe so hard our teeth would hurt but millions of users out there don't bat an eye at that scenario and Microsoft is being held accountable for that behavior, should they, no, but tell that to Congress and the EU, Microsoft tried and got smacked.
Even with a password, security in true form is out the window when said user has full admin privs!
UAC in a non domain environment is easily bypassed. Allowing execution of any program with a single click is crazy even if it's for sake of convenience.

Those "to view document sign in" phishing attacks are super popular now for good reason. Most don't blink an eye before surrendering their credentials and boom! And the vast majority don't have MFA properly implemented as well. Shame on MS for not supporting OTP tokens on basic 365 tenants! But that's a different topic altogether. ;-)
 

GoldenTiger

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Dec 2, 2004
Messages
26,049
I had very few issues with Vista as my main desktop's os from launch... but that was on a self built pc with 64bit Vista in mind. By sp1 it was just as good as win7 was for me *shrug*. Everyone acts like win7 was some big leap, but it really wasn't.

I even used an early Intel ssd with them both... A 64gb Intel slc drive that ran $720ish that I picked up for $500ish. I later sold it at a small profit and upgraded when newer tech came :p.
 

GoodBoy

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Joined
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Messages
2,341
Fake news is what passes for 'Tech' news these days??

Is this all that is left of [H]?

sad...
 

The_Heretic

Certified [H]
Joined
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Messages
15,111
BTW, in case you haven't actually been following the entire thread. There are no versions of Windows 11 Pro that currently exist (including all Dev, Beta, and and Release Preview builds) that prevent you from creating a local account, nor is there any actual evidence that they will ever fully remove that option.
Yeah thanks I read it all. All I posted was a simple solution for myself in case that were to come into effect. Simple.
 
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