Star Citizen - media blowout, Chris Robert's new game

lopoetve

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Bro. Many of the bugs are being addressed with the stuff I mentioned above. And that's not all of it either
No, they’re really not right now. They’re doing what you initially said- adding more bugs and “features” that don’t work.

How do you think the reception of death and medical is going to be when you can break your legs or die walking up a ramp? Or that missing floor in New Deal?

Life isn’t stable enough for death right now.
 

jonneymendoza

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How will a caching system fix a torpedo hitting its own ship? How will UI building blocks fix targeting systems that don’t exist (carrack). Global persistence? All those are just neat features. If you can’t get to work on a single server at small scale, it ain’t gonna work at large scale with multiples.

This is not how this works for any successful company.
Did I specifically say icach will fix the torpedo bug?

Nope. In fact server meshing may fix that as right now, one server is trying to calculate your torpedo firing as well as tracking and calculating the whole star system...

You have no clue what's causing the bug and how they are working.

This ain't a simple website or mobile app they making...
 

Eulogy

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So system load is causing the bug? It can't calculate the "torpedo firing", but, it can calculate it's hit box, collision, and damage.

Let's take a step back. You seem to know - or at least act like you know - that certain things are absolutely getting fixed with new features. How do you know this?
 

jonneymendoza

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So system load is causing the bug? It can't calculate the "torpedo firing", but, it can calculate it's hit box, collision, and damage.

Let's take a step back. You seem to know - or at least act like you know - that certain things are absolutely getting fixed with new features. How do you know this?
Do you have a link to the torpedo bug in the issue council website?

I have a vanguard too and never ever encountered that issue.

So please share the links to the issues you have as I want to see how many are experiencing it
 

lopoetve

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Did I specifically say icach will fix the torpedo bug?

Nope. In fact server meshing may fix that as right now, one server is trying to calculate your torpedo firing as well as tracking and calculating the whole star system...

You have no clue what's causing the bug and how they are working.

This ain't a simple website or mobile app they making...
Because message passing isn't one of the harder things in computational theory and practice. Nope. Not at all. That'll make things better.

Right.
 

jonneymendoza

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Because message passing isn't one of the harder things in computational theory and practice. Nope. Not at all. That'll make things better.

Right.
Ahh so you can do better? You know the issue yea and how to fix it?

Silly cig, Why not contact them and tell them the fix for a bug that the original poster still hasnt sent a issue council link for us to check how many users are having that issue(I do have teh same ship as he does and so does a few of my mates and we have never come across that bug)

So yea please tell us how to fix that buy any the other 20000 bugs
 

gamerk2

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Because message passing isn't one of the harder things in computational theory and practice. Nope. Not at all. That'll make things better.

Right.
To be fair, message passing is the preferred design practice for passing data around nowadays. That being said, there's a "lot" of pitfalls to be aware of if the infrastructure isn't in place to support it properly.

As for bug squashing, you typically maintain a priority/difficulty list so you know what bugs are the most critical, and a reasonable idea of what it will take to solve them. You can't devote time to bug-quash every bug during development, but you can (and should) take some time to quash any critical ones ASAP, while maintaining a list of easy to fix bugs of lesser priority to get focused on as you near release.
 

jonneymendoza

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To be fair, message passing is the preferred design practice for passing data around nowadays. That being said, there's a "lot" of pitfalls to be aware of if the infrastructure isn't in place to support it properly.

As for bug squashing, you typically maintain a priority/difficulty list so you know what bugs are the most critical, and a reasonable idea of what it will take to solve them. You can't devote time to bug-quash every bug during development, but you can (and should) take some time to quash any critical ones ASAP, while maintaining a list of easy to fix bugs of lesser priority to get focused on as you near release.
They do this already.

Look at the auec bug for example. They fixed that in less than a week of it being known and even fixed it knowing the fact that its going to get wiped anyway in like a month .

Look how quick they also released 3.14.1.....
 

lopoetve

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To be fair, message passing is the preferred design practice for passing data around nowadays. That being said, there's a "lot" of pitfalls to be aware of if the infrastructure isn't in place to support it properly.

As for bug squashing, you typically maintain a priority/difficulty list so you know what bugs are the most critical, and a reasonable idea of what it will take to solve them. You can't devote time to bug-quash every bug during development, but you can (and should) take some time to quash any critical ones ASAP, while maintaining a list of easy to fix bugs of lesser priority to get focused on as you near release.
Oh agreed - but it's not ~easy~. And as you said, there's a million pitfalls - so now they get to find all of them, while designing a 3d space MMO, and trying to coordinate that. I'm betting we get whacky "ghost torpedoes" floating around from one server to the next that just appear out of no where and blow up cargo ships. Which, while amusing, is not ideal nor designed. (Or something similar). Assuming that server meshing will "fix" anything other than load (potentially - message passing/parsing/coordinating takes a lot of CPU at times, we'll see) rather than causing potentially many more problems is either wildly optimistic, or delusional. I expect that first release to be unplayable. Which - alpha, it's fine - but don't expect miracles. In fact, I'd expect regressions on dozens of other issues that have been fixed/patched over/got lucky with better hardware that are suddenly unveiled once we're trying to pass objects around as messages.

Agreed on the second as well- there needs to be a constant burn down of bugs AND features at the same time. If you just leave bugs "for later" or "this should be solved with feature X," then you have no idea if you're coding in OTHER bugs that will show up when feature X launches and changes entirely how a core underlying system works, etc.
 

lopoetve

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They do this already.

Look at the auec bug for example. They fixed that in less than a week of it being known and even fixed it knowing the fact that its going to get wiped anyway in like a month .

Look how quick they also released 3.14.1.....
Yes, when you ~break the entire game~ they fix it fast. How long has the MFD bug been around (which makes it almost impossible to interact with any screen in the cockpit)? Or some of the others? Even on building-block based cockpits, the MFD bug is a real issue.
 

lopoetve

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Ahh so you can do better? You know the issue yea and how to fix it?

Silly cig, Why not contact them and tell them the fix for a bug that the original poster still hasnt sent a issue council link for us to check how many users are having that issue(I do have teh same ship as he does and so does a few of my mates and we have never come across that bug)

So yea please tell us how to fix that buy any the other 20000 bugs
With proper software engineering practices, good product management, good prioritization, time and energy. The same way any bug is fixed. I'd have to see the code to actually make relevant suggestions at that level of detail, which I don't do much of these days (I manage and build those teams instead). The issue isn't the programmers or the ideas - it's the lack of product ownership, responsibility, and management that is clear and a hallmark of Chris Robert's games - it's why Origin, Microsoft, etc got involved every time to push him in the right direction.

This is his company. They don't need to force him to finish - they need to manage progress. Organic growth isn't always good - sometimes it needs to be constructively curtailed and directed, and Star Citizen feels like a perfect example of that, given what it COULD be, what we dream of it being, and what the world wants it to be. Just apply some focus and direction to make sure it's not development without purpose or direction.
 

gamerk2

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Oh agreed - but it's not ~easy~. And as you said, there's a million pitfalls - so now they get to find all of them, while designing a 3d space MMO, and trying to coordinate that. I'm betting we get whacky "ghost torpedoes" floating around from one server to the next that just appear out of no where and blow up cargo ships. Which, while amusing, is not ideal nor designed. (Or something similar). Assuming that server meshing will "fix" anything other than load (potentially - message passing/parsing/coordinating takes a lot of CPU at times, we'll see) rather than causing potentially many more problems is either wildly optimistic, or delusional. I expect that first release to be unplayable. Which - alpha, it's fine - but don't expect miracles. In fact, I'd expect regressions on dozens of other issues that have been fixed/patched over/got lucky with better hardware that are suddenly unveiled once we're trying to pass objects around as messages.

Agreed on the second as well- there needs to be a constant burn down of bugs AND features at the same time. If you just leave bugs "for later" or "this should be solved with feature X," then you have no idea if you're coding in OTHER bugs that will show up when feature X launches and changes entirely how a core underlying system works, etc.
Well, things are worse in SC's case since you have the additional layer of synchronization with *every* server that is running that particular instance, which eats performance. I'd wager things are running unsynchronized for now, hence this bug. But once the synchronization is done properly, expect performance to tank (the more servers running the instance, the worse things will get).

I'm expecting a hot mess as well. Again, it's a Chris Roberts production. I fully expect SC to get a little attention when it releases, quickly burn off most of it's player base, and leaving just the whales around. Production will halt once the whales stop shilling, but continue on until then. SC will *never* be what it's fans want it to be, because it's unrealistic (and I'd argue technically infeasible), but the level of simulation it will end up with will turn off most everyone else.
 

FighterAce124

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Do you have a link to the torpedo bug in the issue council website?

I have a vanguard too and never ever encountered that issue.

So please share the links to the issues you have as I want to see how many are experiencing it

I own a harbinger permanently with lti and have blown my tail off twice with torpedos when firing at or above scm. It is a known bug within my org NOVA and there are ic reports in for it. Look yourself. It started with the launch of 3.14.1 and was extra prevalent during xt


Just gonna throw this out there...

Your responses and defensiveness is the precise reason people are aggressive toward SC backers. You need to calm down a bit and step back. It's not worth arguing with people all day every day.

Like I said, I'm a heavy backer. And will continue to do so. But I don't need people responding like you do trying to represent me.
 

FighterAce124

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Hell, I just bought an LTI Carrack. So I’m invested. Very much so. But I can also admit flaws and weaknesses.

If a backer can't see and admit flaws and weaknesses, they are far less valuable to the company than the money they provide. A game can only go so far with yes men backing it.

Same reason why no matter the severity of issue I encounter, I go to ic and back or create new issues every time I play. A door doesn't open until third button press? Empty elevator shaft? Ship spawns missing missiles? Two ships that swap load outs? All go in or are backed as verified.
 

Ripskin

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If a backer can't see and admit flaws and weaknesses, they are far less valuable to the company than the money they provide. A game can only go so far with yes men backing it.

Same reason why no matter the severity of issue I encounter, I go to ic and back or create new issues every time I play. A door doesn't open until third button press? Empty elevator shaft? Ship spawns missing missiles? Two ships that swap load outs? All go in or are backed as verified.
I wish the IC would get revamped, feels more like a black hole since early 2x :( I also miss Bug Smashers. Was nice to see things being fixed lol.
 

jonneymendoza

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I own a harbinger permanently with lti and have blown my tail off twice with torpedos when firing at or above scm. It is a known bug within my org NOVA and there are ic reports in for it. Look yourself. It started with the launch of 3.14.1 and was extra prevalent during xt


Just gonna throw this out there...

Your responses and defensiveness is the precise reason people are aggressive toward SC backers. You need to calm down a bit and step back. It's not worth arguing with people all day every day.

Like I said, I'm a heavy backer. And will continue to do so. But I don't need people responding like you do trying to represent me.
Sorry but I disagree.

I've got the ship and never encountered the issue.

Also I get aggregated on most people here who post a lot of rubbish that you typically find in the sc refund Reddit.

You also refused to acknowledged my earlier post saying negative things about this game.

You glossed over it badly
 

jonneymendoza

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Just because you personally haven't experienced a bug doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. But of course you know this.
Still glossing over the fact that I do post criticism of this game?

I asked you to post the ic of this commmo issue and still waiting....
 

jonneymendoza

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Tune in next Saturday to watch citizencom.

It's basically multiple panels that describe what cig have been working on, there plans for the future and some new information too.

Expect to see more information on the progress of the core tech pillars and some of the content they plan to release.

Details below:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/citizencon

It will start around 4pm UK time and streamed in twitch
 

RanceJustice

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CitizenCon had some neat development info and many of us have been given invites to the 3.15 PTR (Evocati and Wave 1 verified, not sure about others). Probably will try it out later in the weekend! This build includes the first version of the medical gameplay loop/features, which will be very interesting to see! There's a lot of CitizenCon presentations that are deep in the weeds development stuff, which will be very interesting to some but I can see how its not for everyone. Still, there are some lighter, more cinematic showcases of content too for those who are not into an hour long discussion on server meshing hehe. One neat bit is on the new Gen12 renderer which is a multicore Vulkan API base, from (I think) the current less parallelized, DX11 rendering - this will have MASSIVE potential performance benefits for just about everyone, not to mention quality and features. You can find links to it all here - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/citizencon

They are also giving FREE CitizenCon goodies to all Backers who had a game key on or before Oct 9th, so that's neat. In the past Citizen Con digital goodies were often purchased a la carte (as they were included in physical CitizenCon ticket prices) or included in the Subscriptions, so this is a nice gesture with the all-digital CitizenCon. This year you get the year's CitizenCon 2951 Trophy, a new full body suit TBF-4, and a weapon which from the pictures appears to be a knife with a reddish color scheme to match the armor pictured.

In other news, the year's Halloween season events are now listed and are just beginning, too - some facets of last years return, and others are brand new - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/18304-Horror-Beyond-The-Stars

With CitizenCon, they also debuted the pre-order for the new Origin Jumpworks pathfinding-type ship, the 400i - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/18355-Origin-400i . This is a new "fast" Concept sale, with it releasing in 3.15 so players won't have long to wait! Anyone who wanted to buy it, they're offering it with special paints to commemorate CitizenCon, the "Meridian" style included for free! Anyone thinking of purchasing this (or any ship really) , PM me - In most of these recent sales there are often special packages that include extra goodies for the same price, and I can gift them to you at cost! Anyone who wants to get started or has other, I also have a bunch of Legacy ships and packages for sale (full packages have both SQ42 + SC) so just let me know; PM if you have any questions!

Edit: Almost forgot about the Liberator! A new Light Carrier from Anvil, also debuting in 3.15! https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/18353-Anvil-Liberator - It also has a special package with extra paints included for the same cost, that I can offer to you!
 
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DWolvin

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NOOBIFIER1337 has great fast videos of all three ships- 400i, BMM, and Liberator (LCAC / refueling ship)
 

FighterAce124

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Five-Hundred dollars :ROFLMAO:
*take my money*

I own it. And several other $500+ ships.


CitizenCon was a good watch yesterday, kept me entertained at work. Ive also gotten more of an appreciation of how deep the work and effort goes to flesh things out, from ships to worlds. Looking forward to Pyro when it comes even more now.
 

FearTheCow

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Some quick cliff notes....

The pryo system (2nd of 100 promised to be released) won't be released until server meshing is complete, server meshing has no completion date set and no info on their roadmap.

Sq42 was not talked about and no info has been released.

CIG is still in early development for the tools needed to pump out content.

They demonstrated "cloud tech" which most backers are currently concentrating on as to how $500+ million has been well spent.
 

FighterAce124

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Glad your rich...does a bj come with those ships? If so that might be the only satisfactory thing about the game

I'm actually quite modest in income. Spending 20-50 at a time for small upgrades adds up. I know you dont care, but you dont have to be rich to get nice stuff in the game as long as you take your time and plan purchases.
 

lopoetve

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*take my money*

I own it. And several other $500+ ships.


CitizenCon was a good watch yesterday, kept me entertained at work. Ive also gotten more of an appreciation of how deep the work and effort goes to flesh things out, from ships to worlds. Looking forward to Pyro when it comes even more now.
Debating it. And the 400i. I don't get the urge for so many exploration ships, especially a space camper (seriously?)
Some quick cliff notes....

The pryo system (2nd of 100 promised to be released) won't be released until server meshing is complete, server meshing has no completion date set and no info on their roadmap.

Sq42 was not talked about and no info has been released.

CIG is still in early development for the tools needed to pump out content.

They demonstrated "cloud tech" which most backers are currently concentrating on as to how $500+ million has been well spent.
Server meshing is going to be WAY harder than they think it is. I recognize the architecture they're going for, and it's not that it won't work - it's that there's going to be lots of really fun collision bugs for a bit till they whack them, and that's gonna be hilarious and annoying at times. I get why they're not doing it yet, but damn - I honestly expect that 2+ years out still. It's not EASY to do that.

That being said - I agree with the cloud tech both being cool, and also "seriously? That's what you had to show?" at the same time. They needed to show more - more progress, more plan, less concept art. I wanted to see more concrete project plans.
I'm actually quite modest in income. Spending 20-50 at a time for small upgrades adds up. I know you dont care, but you dont have to be rich to get nice stuff in the game as long as you take your time and plan purchases.
Yep.
 

gamerk2

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Server meshing is going to be WAY harder than they think it is. I recognize the architecture they're going for, and it's not that it won't work - it's that there's going to be lots of really fun collision bugs for a bit till they whack them, and that's gonna be hilarious and annoying at times. I get why they're not doing it yet, but damn - I honestly expect that 2+ years out still. It's not EASY to do that.

That being said - I agree with the cloud tech both being cool, and also "seriously? That's what you had to show?" at the same time. They needed to show more - more progress, more plan, less concept art. I wanted to see more concrete project plans.
Agreed. Server meshing introduces it's own class of problems, and it won't scale as well as CR is expecting. Eve Online is a good example of a MMO that *already* does more or less the same thing, and you see how in heavily populated areas how things break down. In Eve, you can get away with that, but not if you are FPS flying.

In short: call me when they can get a few ten-thousand players in one node with no lag. Though I expect the tech won't be around for at least a few decades. Just too much data to process and transmit within too small a time window.
 

Pringle

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In short: call me when they can get a few ten-thousand players in one node with no lag. Though I expect the tech won't be around for at least a few decades. Just too much data to process and transmit within too small a time window.

Fuck it; call me on my holo-phone when SQ42 is released.
 

lopoetve

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Agreed. Server meshing introduces it's own class of problems, and it won't scale as well as CR is expecting. Eve Online is a good example of a MMO that *already* does more or less the same thing, and you see how in heavily populated areas how things break down. In Eve, you can get away with that, but not if you are FPS flying.

In short: call me when they can get a few ten-thousand players in one node with no lag. Though I expect the tech won't be around for at least a few decades. Just too much data to process and transmit within too small a time window.
I'd be happy with 200. But - I suspect that's even a ways out.

The graphics engine updates are amazing - the ships are awesome. Emergent gameplay is excellent and hilarious. But... BUT... they get tied up in so many of the "fun things" that they get lost on the "core things" - and I worry that will keep delaying the game.

We didn't need an exploration ship. Another, exploration ship I should say... But hey, who am I to argue.
 

jonneymendoza

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30K crashes will no longer lose your cargo in your ships!!!

Server Crash Recovery
(We heard you liked trading fixes)

Having lost a hull full of cargo ourselves due to a pesky error 30k, we know all too well how frustrating encountering a server crash can be. For that reason, we're very happy to announce the addition of Server Crash Recovery!

So, how does it work? We're adding functionality that creates a "heartbeat" (regular logging with persistence) for you and your ship. So, in the case of a server crash, the backend will recognize that an unexpected timeout has happened, allowing you to visit any ASOP terminal and spawn your ship, intact and exactly as it was pre-crash. This means your cargo, ship status (health/fuel), and any items you had lying around your ship will return in the exact state that it was.

Now, it's important to note this is merely a simple interim fix. Long term, this will all be handled by the entity graph and server meshing work, where we'll track shard history which will allow us to properly retain information and restore you directly to the moment you left off (mid-quantum flight, etc.). Nonetheless, while this is a temporary solution, it should be effective and reliable.

It's also important to note that this new addition is specifically for server crashes. Client crashes would still be handled in the same way they are now, with current crash recovery functionality.

This is currently in review and will hit the PTU very soon!

Also: some Server meshing news

Server Meshing and its benefits
- Will support multiple systems
- Supports global/environmental persistence
- Better server performance
- Increased scalability of instances, which will become shards
- Higher player counts in those shards

- Better fault tolerance and recovery Shards and how they will work

- We aim to increase shard density over time, with regional shards being a more realistic target. A global shard has some serious issues (including real-world limitations) to overcome before we can even start working on it

. - Even with different shards, the goal is to make a seamless experience for players. Different shards will have different states, but eventually you and your friend will be tied to a shard permanently.

- For regional shards, you will be able to select the region, so you won't be 'trapped' in a single region. However, the shard histories will be different.

- We won't start with regional shards; in the beginning it will be non-deterministic which shard you end up in (although it would still allow grouping with players together).
 
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